Episode 19

full
Published on:

8th Mar 2022

MAKE YOUR IDEAS IRRESISTIBLE

I sit with Tamsen Webster, to discuss how to make your ideas stick and sell.

We start our conversation by talking about Covid and the polarization it has created and how best to approach it.

Then we move on to talking about Ideas, Branding, TEDx which has been a core area of work for Tamsen.

This episode is one that comes full circle, from humanity to ideas.

About Tamsen:

Part strategist, part storyteller, part English-to-English translator, Tamsen Webster helps experts drive action with their ideas. Tamsen honed her trademark Red Thread approach in and for major organizations like Johnson & Johnson, Harvard Medical School, and Intel, as well as with hundreds of individual founders, academics, and thought leaders. She's a former TEDx Executive Producer and current Idea Strategist. She's also author of Find Your Red Thread: Make Your Big Ideas Irresistible. 

Connecting with Tamsen:

https://tamsenwebster.com

Subscribing to her newsletter:

https://tamsenwebster.com/newsletter/

Buy her book - Find Your Red Thread

https://tamsenwebster.com/book/

Connecting with Manpreet

https://linktr.ee/themanpreetbawa

Transcript
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The biggest

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thing about

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building a story about your idea

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that someone would tell themselves,

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is it you?

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I say there's two things

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that are really important to

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to anchor it on, and one is

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how can you anchor your idea

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in something that somebody already wants?

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Of the two things,

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that's probably the easier one.

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I call that the goal in the book,

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but this is the audience goal.

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What is something

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that they're already looking for?

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The answer provides.

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And this is not something

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that you know, deep down,

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they're looking for.

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This is not a thing that you wish

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they were looking for.

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This is something that they're literally

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looking for to confirm.

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It's a it's an urgent issue,

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the kind of thing that they are

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being tasked to solve by their boss

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or that they are,

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you know,

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they're searching on their own on Google

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because it's, you know,

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yeah , you know, it's an urgent issue

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or it's a persistent irritant.

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It's something that day in, day out.

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It's just this thing

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that they always have to work around.

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It's a pain in the butt.

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But what else can they do?

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That's the kind of thing

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that you want to.

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But the more that your idea

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can be anchored

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in something that somebody already wants,

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the more that they're going to be

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automatically curious about it,

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the more that it's already

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going to be relevant to them,

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the more that

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you can start to say and make sure.

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So just from an idea

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validation standpoint

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that your idea actually solves

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an important and urgent

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or persistent problem in the world

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or something,

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I saw a lot of the absence of.

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And looking at FedEx applications

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where I'm like,

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This is a lovely idea,

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but I don't care what it does.

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Oh yeah.

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The second thing is, and this is by far

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much harder.

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Hello.

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Welcome everyone

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to yet another episode of a song

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with Manfred.

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And I am so excited

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to bring this guest ray, because not

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because of only her background,

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but because what she brings to the table.

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She's an author.

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She's part strategist,

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message strategist.

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She is part keynote speaker.

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She has helped organizations like Johnson

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and Johnson Harvard Medical School in

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and their messaging strategies.

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She has also worked

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as executive producer for addicts.

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So any of you wanting to know

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how do you get into drugs and how

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to make a,

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you know,

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keynote that goes well on FedEx?

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She's the person you own a dog.

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So welcome, Tamsin,

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and thank you so much for being here.

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Thanks so much.

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I'm great and I'm delighted to be here.

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Thank you.

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Amazing.

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So let's start with where everybody

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today is the COVID.

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How are things with COVID and everything

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that's going on in the world,

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which is good for the first time?

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Everybody is in the same boat, kind of.

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Yeah, yeah.

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It's been a really interesting.

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It's really been an interesting time.

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I joke that it feels like

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we're in 2020 Part three, but oftentimes

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the third movie in a trilogy

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is the best, so let's hope.

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Yeah,

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it's been very interesting

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because I live in Boston, Massachusetts,

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on the eastern coast of the US,

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and we were one of the places that

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where we got it early here and

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and got hit pretty hard.

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Like one of the biggest

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one of the first super spreader events

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before we knew that it was

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a superspreader event was at a

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a Biogen conference

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here in downtown Boston. And

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that's been both good and

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bad because it means

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that that combined with

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we have enormous numbers of our hospitals

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and colleges here

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meant that we closed down and shut down

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really early and have been tracking

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with the science

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pretty much from the get go.

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But that means that our experience

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here up in the Northeast

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has been very different

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than some from other areas

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in the U.S.

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And so there have been times

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where it feels like

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in addition

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to all sorts of other reasons,

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we're just absolutely living

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in a different plane of reality

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than, for instance,

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some of my friends who live in Florida

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or in Texas,

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where the where the just the reactions

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and sensibilities around it

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have just been very, very different.

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So it's been interesting to see.

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I'm most fascinated

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by just

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looking at how differently

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different groups of people

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have experienced and interpreted

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and reacted to all of this, and

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I try to remain curious about it.

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Yeah, it's an interesting thing.

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And in your area of work being,

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you know, keen on speaking and do

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see a shift that

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hasn't happened in the last maybe five,

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ten years,

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you see any shift coming in

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that industry.

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I don't mostly.

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Yet, mostly

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because there just isn't a lot.

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I mean,

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from the speaking standpoint,

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obviously, everything

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just kind of shut down, at least.

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I chose to shut everything down

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because I had kids

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that were vaccinated at home,

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they now are, but it was just it was.

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I didn't want to be the reason why

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my family got sick.

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So I made a decision very early in 2020

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to pivot away

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from the speaking aspect of things

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is much, much more on on writing.

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So, you know, got the book finished

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on consulting and coaching, which is that

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which is the lion's

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share of my work anyway

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and what I really enjoy.

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I can say what I wish is would happen.

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As with as far as the mess,

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the kinds of messages that are

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people are putting out there in the world

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and, you know,

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they're the ones that you would expect.

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I think there's a lot of people who are

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doing well with messages

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about resilience right now

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and that are dealing with hurt.

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A good friend of mine,

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Mitch Joel, talk

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about how he was seeing a trend towards

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how to

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activate curiosity in people.

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And if I were to add another topic

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to the list of what I

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hope people will start

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to become more interested in

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is in a response to all the increasing

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polarization and tribalism

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that's happening

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kind of everywhere

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from what I can see,

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not just here in the U.S.,

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but everywhere in Canada and the U.K.

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and Eastern Europe

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and in European

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Union in general, actually,

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that I I would love to see a rise in

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genuine seeking to understand

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how other people see the world

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and getting a better

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understanding of that,

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not from a us versus them standpoint,

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but from a.

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Listen,

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we go got to live in this place together.

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Yes.

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How can we how can we find middle ground?

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I mean, I think that's a

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that's the kind of thing

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that I would love to see more. Yeah.

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And that's so true that polarization

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is, you know,

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it's just I think it was there.

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But of course,

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it has just propelled

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it is just

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brought it to the center stage.

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You cannot ignore it anymore.

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That's true.

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You know,

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there was

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there was a time early in my career,

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very early in my career

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where I was kind of the bottom rung

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and I was a management consultant.

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And it was interesting

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because the company at the time hadn't.

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It was great

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as I was making like

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a ridiculous amount of money

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as management consultants do sometimes.

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But the problem was

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the company had added

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a had added this consulting arm

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without really having any clients

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for the consulting arm.

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And so we had this

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phalanx of consultants

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with nothing to do.

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I think it was one of my earliest

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exposures to the fact that in the absence

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of something to do,

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people will find something to do.

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And a lot of times

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in the absence of something to do,

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people will find something

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to be outraged about.

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And so,

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you know, in this example, like

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for for us,

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it was people got really worked up about

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what time people

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were arriving in the office

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and just

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it was like,

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but that person's arriving at this time

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at this point,

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and I just remember

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one of the more experienced consultants

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just sitting with me and maybe one or two

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other things over lunch,

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he was like,

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You know what,

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if we were busy,

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this wouldn't be an issue.

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And so I think

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you're totally right, Manpreet,

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that is is that in the absence of.

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So it's not just, you know, COVID

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shutting things down

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and those kinds of things,

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I think it's an intersection of the fact

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that we've had this cessation

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of normal activity,

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cessation of interaction

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with people and all but the most

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difficult ways

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to interact in a way that's that's

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that has dimensionality

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or interacting with people.

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Asynchronously on social sites

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and where we can be

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kind of

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hiding behind screens,

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we're not actually seeing people

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face to face

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that's intersecting with

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I think there's been

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a general degradation

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generally about us having as humans

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shared experiences,

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shared things as just as entertainment

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and all these other things

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become more and more fragmented.

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Just you take these two things.

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You put them together where

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people already weren't

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really interacting much

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and then you make them bored.

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They're going to find things

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to get outraged about.

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And it's not that

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those things aren't outrageous,

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you know, particularly here in the U.S.

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I think the the upheavals of 2020 around

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the the killing of multiple

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black men and women

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in the hands of police custody

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and others.

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That stuff is outrageous.

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Yes.

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But I think there's other things

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that that have.

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What's sad to me is that.

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I don't

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I don't see that level of passion

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around those big issues right now

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here in the U.S.,

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I see that level of outrage around stuff

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that's just not as important.

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And so

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that's kind of the thing that I again,

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I try to hold curiosity for those things

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rather than judgment, because

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judgment only leads to more outrage

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and more polarization.

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And and I'd love to be able to model

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the things that I

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that I wish more people did,

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which is like, Aha,

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I wonder why they are acting that way?

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Or I wonder why they believe that,

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or I wonder

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how this perspective makes sense to them.

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Not Oh my gosh, they must be X in order

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to think, behave or act

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that you know or believe that way.

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But huh, that's different

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than what I see

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and how I think or believe or act.

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I I wonder what makes them that way.

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And I think that

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the more that

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you can ask that of yourself

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and other of other people,

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even why am I acting this way

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in a particular moment?

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I think you have to me, it's

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a path towards

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finding that shared experience

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because it doesn't take much

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of doing that before you start to realize

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that people are very much driven

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by fundamentally the same things

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that we're

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all going to agree about things,

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but we're driven by

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fundamentally the same things.

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And when we can see

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start to see the world

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through other people's eyes,

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I think it starts to sharpen the edges.

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Excuse me,

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I think it starts to soften the edges

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with which we.

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Interact with them,

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and I think that that's only good

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because I think we've all gotten

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a little sharp and brittle.

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Yeah, we have,

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and I think that's for sure.

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Like,

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you cannot hide anymore

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that everybody was just,

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you know, sort of putting it down.

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Maybe it's not important at work.

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I think I am seeing the same thing

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with the great resignation.

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Now people are leaving jobs

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and I've been consulting all my life

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and I've been in both sides with

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working for the customer and working

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as a,

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you know, person

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who is managing the customer.

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So and I see it.

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You know,

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this thing about when you are curious,

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when you're open

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to entertain

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that somebody else may have a different

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idea or opinion

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to something,

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it just opens the doors very differently.

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So thank you.

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I mean that

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because I think

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I think fundamentally

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we all humans, we want to be seen.

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We want to be heard.

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We want to be validated.

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We want to feel like

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we have some worth and.

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You know,

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it can be

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difficult, but the the path to getting

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someone to do that for you

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is to extend it to them first, right?

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Like that?

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That's the way it like.

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That's the way it happens.

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Like, you know,

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you say, No, no,

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you must listen to me,

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but it's like, Well,

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if I do that, I don't have,

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you know, either

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the human nature

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is such that I don't have.

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I don't know that you're going

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to respond to that,

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but you know, the work of Robert Chow

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Dini, for instance,

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beautiful stuff

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on the idea of reciprocity

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before I extend to you first,

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this genuine

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curiosity,

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this genuine seeking to understand

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kind of peace, then generally not always,

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but generally that's

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going to activate in other people the

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oh well, you do.

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You just listen to me.

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You heard me, you gave me my space.

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You saw me.

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All right,

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I'll do the same thing for you.

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And.

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It's just

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I think there's this perpetual tension

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that I see,

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just do

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all the work that I've done

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and this has been true for years

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and the work that I've done around

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communications and change

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communications and brand strategy

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and message strategy

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is that.

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I think

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ultimately you're faced with a choice,

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do you want to be?

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Do you want to speak

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or do you want to actually be heard and.

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I think there are people

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for various reasons,

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we're just getting it out

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for them is what they need.

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I definitely put myself

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and somebody who was like, Well,

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I don't want to speak for speaking sake,

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even if it's raining or whatever.

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Like I if I have,

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if I'm going to put something out there

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for me, it's

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because I actually wanted to be heard.

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So what can I do to help

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make sure that that that

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what I've you know,

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that it's not just hitting

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their eardrums, okay,

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but that

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but actual communication happens because,

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you know,

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the communication

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is not about the sending

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out of something,

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only it's about the receiving

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of that information.

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And I just feel like.

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Myself included, we can do a lot more

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to make sure that what we send

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send is actually received.

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And yes,

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I think those would be important

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steps for all of us to take.

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Yeah.

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That you

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touched on a very beautiful point

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that can go into multiple dimensions,

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especially the communication

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and sending and receiving like,

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you know, it's important value

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the messages that his centers received.

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Well,

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and you are open to receive

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what is being sent to you.

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But also, I mean,

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when you send their word

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that he really just took me

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to a little bit

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on the spiritual side of the things

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like so many times because you had.

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Closed in, whatever we're

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doing, we're not even receiving

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what God is trying to send.

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Whatever universe you might call it,

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universe God, faith, whatever it is.

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But I just

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thought that was such a beautiful thing

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to come out of the discussion of this.

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I mean, yeah,

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I think in it,

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I think it circles

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back to the conversation

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about COVID and all of this.

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And one of the things that you know, I

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I don't know.

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I I love what you're saying about that.

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I'm afraid that some time

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that we just were closed off to

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whatever could be coming our way

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that made me think of was

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the work of Victor Frankl and search

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for meaning.

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And what I what

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struck me

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so powerfully about Franco's work

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is that, you know,

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particularly in this age

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where there's a lot of people saying,

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I find your passion,

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find your purpose as if there's one.

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I don't believe there's just one.

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And I know that

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that could probably be mistaken

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when I say, I find your red thread.

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But to me, that's a

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that's a different thing for me.

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For me, that your red thread

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is your operating system.

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It is, yes,

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why you do what you do,

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the way that you do it.

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And that is what ties together

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all the things

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that you have purpose

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for and passion about.

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But I think that you know what, what

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Franco said

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that really stuck with me is that.

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You know,

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I think a lot of times

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we can get trapped in saying,

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what does this mean? What is this?

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What does all this mean,

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even if we're even that curious about it?

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Yes.

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And there's a slight shift

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that he talks about that

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I find so powerful,

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which is

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I'm not going to assume

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that there's a plan

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or a purpose out there, but

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I can always choose

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what meaning I will draw from it.

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Like, take that ownership from it

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and say, I'm in this situation.

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What is the meaning that

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I can draw from this?

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Because really, that's the

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only thing I can control.

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I don't know

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if there's a purpose in a plan.

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I'm not the kind of person who's wired

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to just leave it up to somebody else

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and abdicate that responsibility

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for my own behavior.

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I like, you know.

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But I love this idea of.

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What meaning can I draw from this,

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and for me, this whole situation

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with with COVID

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and all the things

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that have been happening

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from political standpoint

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with, you know, here in the U.S.

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and around the world,

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I think it's a time for,

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you know, that's

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that's a time for self-directed

Speaker:

curiosity, right?

Speaker:

So await us

Speaker:

if they want

Speaker:

to be curious about other people,

Speaker:

but to be able to find our own path

Speaker:

when we're bored.

Speaker:

But and and the life seems like

Speaker:

we're just on rerun over and over again.

Speaker:

Is this

Speaker:

it is to self direct

Speaker:

and ask those questions over what meaning

Speaker:

what meaning can I draw?

Speaker:

What lessons can I learn? What, what?

Speaker:

What can I do in this situation so that

Speaker:

this?

Speaker:

Adds more meaning to

Speaker:

me and for me

Speaker:

and who I want to be

Speaker:

and how I want to move about the world.

Speaker:

Mm hmm.

Speaker:

And I think

Speaker:

since you brought Victor Frankl, we can,

Speaker:

you know,

Speaker:

his called that,

Speaker:

you know, in the between

Speaker:

stimulus and response,

Speaker:

there is a space

Speaker:

and that space has our power

Speaker:

to choose our response.

Speaker:

And in our in our response lies

Speaker:

our growth and our freedom.

Speaker:

I think that just beautifully sums it up.

Speaker:

Absolutely.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

Viktor Frankl. Yes.

Speaker:

I wonder sometimes how, you know,

Speaker:

when I look at people like Viktor

Speaker:

Frankl who could have that depth in

Speaker:

so little to be spoken.

Speaker:

And I think that's it's

Speaker:

beautifully intersects with our Tarquin

Speaker:

importance of message your ideas and,

Speaker:

you know, finding your red thread,

Speaker:

which you touched upon.

Speaker:

So

Speaker:

how about you just briefly

Speaker:

give a little bit about your journey

Speaker:

and then we'll get into

Speaker:

what is right

Speaker:

and why is it a ball around and how?

Speaker:

Sure, sure. Yeah.

Speaker:

So yeah, my I've lived.

Speaker:

I feel like I've lived most of my life

Speaker:

straddling worlds

Speaker:

and oftentimes opposite ones like,

Speaker:

you know, anywhere from when I was in

Speaker:

high school,

Speaker:

I was both in the arts

Speaker:

community and manage the varsity boys

Speaker:

baseball team.

Speaker:

And then when I went to college,

Speaker:

I was in the business.

Speaker:

It took, you've got a business degree

Speaker:

and I got a degree in liberal arts

Speaker:

and American studies in art history.

Speaker:

Same thing. I did the same thing.

Speaker:

So there's always this time

Speaker:

where I've been in non-profits

Speaker:

and studying

Speaker:

for profits

Speaker:

at the same time in grad school.

Speaker:

And then even when I was

Speaker:

in organizations,

Speaker:

my job was to bridge the gap

Speaker:

so that in my very brief

Speaker:

but enduring turn as a

Speaker:

change management consultant

Speaker:

and we were doing

Speaker:

mergers and acquisitions.

Speaker:

So it was about

Speaker:

how do you bridge the gap

Speaker:

between two organizations

Speaker:

and two cultures?

Speaker:

And when I worked in organizations,

Speaker:

I was often in the role that had it

Speaker:

because I was often in marketing

Speaker:

communications roles.

Speaker:

I was often in the role

Speaker:

that had to bridge

Speaker:

between an organization's audience

Speaker:

and the organization itself.

Speaker:

Like,

Speaker:

How do we get the organization's strategy

Speaker:

out to the audience

Speaker:

and how do we make sure

Speaker:

that the audience,

Speaker:

the customers, clients,

Speaker:

students, depending

Speaker:

on where I was working,

Speaker:

that their voice was heard back?

Speaker:

And I've just been.

Speaker:

Endlessly fascinated by how how to make

Speaker:

you know what being a US us-based person,

Speaker:

what I refer

Speaker:

to as English to English translation

Speaker:

work better,

Speaker:

how is it that we can improve how we

Speaker:

understand each other?

Speaker:

Oftentimes, you know,

Speaker:

when I was message

Speaker:

and brands doing

Speaker:

message advanced brand strategy,

Speaker:

which I still do

Speaker:

so that you know the the power of a brand

Speaker:

or an organization could come across.

Speaker:

And then about eight, eight

Speaker:

and a half nine years ago

Speaker:

now, I got involved in the Ted

Speaker:

X organization here

Speaker:

at Ted Cambridge in Massachusetts.

Speaker:

And that really started to hone

Speaker:

further my real interest

Speaker:

in, OK, it's not just about,

Speaker:

you know,

Speaker:

what organization

Speaker:

I really fell in love with.

Speaker:

How do we help?

Speaker:

How do I help

Speaker:

these experts get these amazing, world

Speaker:

changing ideas?

Speaker:

How do we how do we bridge that gap?

Speaker:

Because how do we bridge the gap

Speaker:

between academia and every day?

Speaker:

How do we bridge the gap between,

Speaker:

you know, expertize and implementation?

Speaker:

You know,

Speaker:

how do we bridge the gap between an idea

Speaker:

which is what Ted is all about

Speaker:

and actually making it work?

Speaker:

Like, how do you operationalize the idea?

Speaker:

So the work that I've been doing

Speaker:

for the last

Speaker:

eight, ten years,

Speaker:

more specifically around

Speaker:

ideas, has really been

Speaker:

about trying to answer that question

Speaker:

how how do we how is it possible?

Speaker:

What's the method

Speaker:

by which

Speaker:

we can make our ideas irresistible

Speaker:

to people

Speaker:

and to the people for whom

Speaker:

they they would have the most impact ?

Speaker:

And so

Speaker:

the book is a product of

Speaker:

that is product of all that.

Speaker:

You know that 25 years

Speaker:

and brand and message

Speaker:

strategy, those,

Speaker:

you know, 89 years and Ted X and 13 years

Speaker:

moonlighting as a as a weight

Speaker:

loss coach as well.

Speaker:

It's a whole other story.

Speaker:

But those three things

Speaker:

of those three lines together

Speaker:

really just intersected with,

Speaker:

you know what, there's

Speaker:

there actually is a way to do this.

Speaker:

There is a way to decode how we

Speaker:

come up with idea and process an idea

Speaker:

and make a decision to change.

Speaker:

And that's what I wanted to figure out.

Speaker:

I wanted to figure out

Speaker:

how how could I do that?

Speaker:

How could I help other people

Speaker:

move their ideas forward by improving

Speaker:

how it is that they talk about?

Speaker:

Yeah,

Speaker:

and that's what this book

Speaker:

excellent book comes in,

Speaker:

and I'll put that in like anybody was,

Speaker:

you know,

Speaker:

learn more without investing a lot.

Speaker:

Oh, without investing into

Speaker:

or committing to the, you know,

Speaker:

more and broader ideas that Tamsin works

Speaker:

in, if you just want to feel

Speaker:

what it feels like

Speaker:

finding and working with your ideas.

Speaker:

I think this book is great.

Speaker:

It's very simple.

Speaker:

As the first thing I realized

Speaker:

when I picked up the book,

Speaker:

the hardest thing was to

Speaker:

just put it down,

Speaker:

like flipped the pages and I had to work.

Speaker:

I thought that, you know,

Speaker:

like other books

Speaker:

I read, I get the keynote.

Speaker:

But this one,

Speaker:

if you really want to get things

Speaker:

all you have to work like,

Speaker:

you have to play with that idea.

Speaker:

And for the first couple of

Speaker:

four or five days, I'm just

Speaker:

having a hard time

Speaker:

sticking to one ideas like,

Speaker:

Oh, I can work on this, I can work on.

Speaker:

So yeah, but it's a great book.

Speaker:

It has all the tools that you need.

Speaker:

So getting into the right side,

Speaker:

what is the red thread

Speaker:

definition I can give a red thread

Speaker:

is it is.

Speaker:

It is a story that you tell yourself

Speaker:

to explain

Speaker:

why the world

Speaker:

or you works the way that you wave it.

Speaker:

It does.

Speaker:

We all do this.

Speaker:

We all, oftentimes unconsciously,

Speaker:

we all build these rationalizations,

Speaker:

these justifications for ourselves

Speaker:

about why

Speaker:

you know, that person

Speaker:

is behaving that way

Speaker:

while we're behaving this way,

Speaker:

why what we did was right,

Speaker:

why what they did was wrong.

Speaker:

So you see how this ties in

Speaker:

earlier conversation

Speaker:

and what I discovered?

Speaker:

Well, my hypothesis was that this

Speaker:

these stories that we built ourselves

Speaker:

and tell ourselves

Speaker:

follow the same structure

Speaker:

as the stories that we tell other people.

Speaker:

And so my hypothesis was,

Speaker:

well, what if

Speaker:

we found the elements of that story

Speaker:

that we told ourselves about an idea?

Speaker:

Would that help us articulate the idea

Speaker:

to other people?

Speaker:

And I can tell you now

Speaker:

after testing it for

Speaker:

eight years, yeah, it does actually is.

Speaker:

My fondest wish is to somehow,

Speaker:

you know,

Speaker:

partner with somebody in academia

Speaker:

to actually test this

Speaker:

so that it's more than

Speaker:

just kind of

Speaker:

ethnographic research at this point.

Speaker:

But that's that's what I discovered,

Speaker:

and that's

Speaker:

what what I was able to to prove out,

Speaker:

which is that

Speaker:

there are these elements of story

Speaker:

like Once Upon a Time stories that

Speaker:

when you can identify

Speaker:

those elements in your own idea

Speaker:

and your own messages

Speaker:

in your own content,

Speaker:

a couple of things happen

Speaker:

and it's pretty exciting.

Speaker:

one is you understand your idea better.

Speaker:

Our brains

Speaker:

take shortcuts around our ideas,

Speaker:

we kind of assume, you know, we

Speaker:

because our

Speaker:

because they are our ideas,

Speaker:

we don't actually sometimes listen

Speaker:

to all the steps of the story.

Speaker:

We just say,

Speaker:

Well, this is the right answer. Not.

Speaker:

And we kind of forget the path

Speaker:

that we got there.

Speaker:

The second thing is

Speaker:

because those elements

Speaker:

follow a structure of story.

Speaker:

When you find them for your idea,

Speaker:

you're able to very easily

Speaker:

explain it

Speaker:

to somebody else

Speaker:

in language

Speaker:

and in elements

Speaker:

that their brains understand

Speaker:

instinctively.

Speaker:

So that what happens

Speaker:

is that you're able to transfer the

Speaker:

I your idea from your brain

Speaker:

into somebody else's

Speaker:

with just the minimum amount of loss,

Speaker:

the amount of loss of meaning

Speaker:

, a loss of understanding.

Speaker:

And because

Speaker:

and this is the big thing about the book

Speaker:

you're building,

Speaker:

not just the story

Speaker:

you tell about your idea,

Speaker:

but the story

Speaker:

your audience will tell themselves

Speaker:

about the idea.

Speaker:

The third thing about doing this

Speaker:

that really does

Speaker:

a lot of what we were talking about

Speaker:

before, really,

Speaker:

it really forces you

Speaker:

to look at your own ideas

Speaker:

from the eyes of somebody

Speaker:

who isn't yet convinced

Speaker:

that it's the right one.

Speaker:

And so it makes your idea stronger

Speaker:

because you have to put it through

Speaker:

the eyes of a skeptic.

Speaker:

And

Speaker:

we don't usually look at our ideas

Speaker:

with our own ideas, with skeptics eyes,

Speaker:

but we sure as heck

Speaker:

look at everybody else's that way.

Speaker:

So this is just,

Speaker:

you know, flipping

Speaker:

flipping that script

Speaker:

around a little bit

Speaker:

and really building it up from there.

Speaker:

Yes.

Speaker:

And, you know,

Speaker:

one of the things

Speaker:

that I think this book does nicely

Speaker:

is that it

Speaker:

is for it's

Speaker:

not a level for just one person

Speaker:

like anybody can do it.

Speaker:

People in sales,

Speaker:

everybody is doing something right.

Speaker:

They are selling their ideas, people.

Speaker:

I think people, technical technicians

Speaker:

going in into interviews,

Speaker:

going in the project, presentations,

Speaker:

everybody is selling some idea.

Speaker:

But.

Speaker:

Not everybody understands the

Speaker:

structure behind that Adobe the skeleton

Speaker:

of that idea,

Speaker:

which this will really nicely does.

Speaker:

Thank you.

Speaker:

And in your book when I read, there

Speaker:

were different components of that idea,

Speaker:

and I don't want you to say

Speaker:

all the components,

Speaker:

but give one or two components that

Speaker:

you know, people can know about.

Speaker:

Yeah, I mean, I think so.

Speaker:

I think

Speaker:

picking up on this idea

Speaker:

of looking at your idea

Speaker:

through skeptical eyes.

Speaker:

So somebody who isn't already convinced

Speaker:

it's the right answer.

Speaker:

The biggest thing about building a story

Speaker:

about your idea

Speaker:

that someone will tell themselves

Speaker:

is that you?

Speaker:

I say there's two things

Speaker:

that are really important to

Speaker:

to anchor it on.

Speaker:

And one is

Speaker:

how can you anchor your idea

Speaker:

in something that somebody already wants?

Speaker:

Of the two things,

Speaker:

that's probably the easier one.

Speaker:

I call that the goal in the book,

Speaker:

but this is the audience goal.

Speaker:

What is something

Speaker:

that they're already looking for?

Speaker:

The answer provides.

Speaker:

And this is not something

Speaker:

that you know, deep down,

Speaker:

they're looking for.

Speaker:

This is not a thing that you wish

Speaker:

they were looking for.

Speaker:

This is something that they're literally

Speaker:

looking for to confirm.

Speaker:

It's a it's an urgent issue,

Speaker:

the kind of thing that they are

Speaker:

being tasked to solve by their boss

Speaker:

or that they are,

Speaker:

you know,

Speaker:

they're searching on their own on Google

Speaker:

because it's,

Speaker:

you know, it's,

Speaker:

you know, it's an urgent issue

Speaker:

or it's a persistent irritant.

Speaker:

It's something that day in, day out.

Speaker:

It's just this thing

Speaker:

that they always have to work around.

Speaker:

It's a pain in the butt.

Speaker:

But what else can they do?

Speaker:

That's the kind of thing

Speaker:

that you want to.

Speaker:

But the more that your idea

Speaker:

can be anchored

Speaker:

in something that somebody already wants,

Speaker:

the more

Speaker:

that they're going to be

Speaker:

automatically curious about it,

Speaker:

the more that it's already

Speaker:

going to be relevant to them,

Speaker:

the more that

Speaker:

you can start to say and make sure.

Speaker:

So just from idea validation standpoint

Speaker:

that your idea actually solves

Speaker:

an important and urgent

Speaker:

or persistent problem in the world

Speaker:

or something, I saw a lot

Speaker:

or the absence of.

Speaker:

And looking at FedEx applications

Speaker:

where I'm like,

Speaker:

this is a lovely idea,

Speaker:

but I don't sure what it does.

Speaker:

Oh yeah.

Speaker:

The second thing is, and this is

Speaker:

by far much harder,

Speaker:

but it's critical is

Speaker:

how does your idea align

Speaker:

with something

Speaker:

that your audience

Speaker:

already believes to be true

Speaker:

about the world? Hmm.

Speaker:

This piece is super important

Speaker:

because that's

Speaker:

how you get someone

Speaker:

to convince themselves

Speaker:

that this is the right idea,

Speaker:

because even your idea is mimicking

Speaker:

something else that they know

Speaker:

to be true someplace else.

Speaker:

So the example I used throughout

Speaker:

the book is the De Beers

Speaker:

Diamond tagline A diamond is forever.

Speaker:

Because when that tagline

Speaker:

was first introduced in 1947,

Speaker:

people believed that it was true.

Speaker:

Not as a diamond ring is forever, but

Speaker:

is why the tagline so,

Speaker:

so powerful it's a diamond is forever.

Speaker:

But most people would say to themselves,

Speaker:

Well, it's true.

Speaker:

You know,

Speaker:

it's it's a it's a yeah, I believe that.

Speaker:

And if I'm looking for,

Speaker:

you know, the thing that I want,

Speaker:

right, align with something

Speaker:

somebody already wants, as well

Speaker:

as what they already believe.

Speaker:

If I want the best symbol

Speaker:

of my commitment to somebody else

Speaker:

and I believe that a diamond is forever,

Speaker:

it becomes really hard for me

Speaker:

to stick with

Speaker:

whatever my approach was before

Speaker:

if it didn't already include Diamond.

Speaker:

So I'd say,

Speaker:

you know, have those,

Speaker:

you know, those pieces,

Speaker:

you know, there's a third in there

Speaker:

that's important as well. But

Speaker:

I think the just

Speaker:

to be consistent

Speaker:

with what

Speaker:

we've been talking about, Manpreet,

Speaker:

the more that you can figure out

Speaker:

how your idea

Speaker:

again anchors with something

Speaker:

somebody already wants and anchors

Speaker:

with something they already believe,

Speaker:

the stronger

Speaker:

your idea is going to be

Speaker:

in, the more successful

Speaker:

your message around is going to be.

Speaker:

Mm hmm.

Speaker:

Yeah, the diamond story.

Speaker:

That diamond example is

Speaker:

again an idea that everybody understands,

Speaker:

knows and is able to relate.

Speaker:

And you know, I didn't.

Speaker:

I have forgotten

Speaker:

the parts of the books,

Speaker:

the the melody with the diamonds,

Speaker:

just everything came back.

Speaker:

And that's the beauty of that red thread

Speaker:

that it's just

Speaker:

keeping that thing together.

Speaker:

You mentioned Ted talks, and you know,

Speaker:

it's it's a stage that a lot of people,

Speaker:

especially in the research and

Speaker:

even now

Speaker:

in marketing

Speaker:

and people

Speaker:

who are coming with new businesses

Speaker:

want to be on.

Speaker:

And in your experience with.

Speaker:

You know, more than 3000 presentations

Speaker:

that you have worked with

Speaker:

or the messages that you've worked there

Speaker:

and probably a lot more that didn't

Speaker:

go through all.

Speaker:

So what has been

Speaker:

common?

Speaker:

Think about the ones that really stick

Speaker:

and the ones where they do well,

Speaker:

even after forget

Speaker:

getting the direct stage,

Speaker:

they then

Speaker:

sort of

Speaker:

got a similar response

Speaker:

from the audience and said, Yeah,

Speaker:

well, first clarification,

Speaker:

the 3000 presentations

Speaker:

that I've done

Speaker:

are kind of my own personal object

Speaker:

all the years,

Speaker:

but I would say from a

Speaker:

TEDTalk standpoint,

Speaker:

you know, we you know,

Speaker:

I've I've had a direct hand in probably

Speaker:

about 60 of them with Telex

Speaker:

Cambridge at this point.

Speaker:

And then my own with my own clients,

Speaker:

I'd probably add another 20 or 30 or 40

Speaker:

or more.

Speaker:

So probably close to hundreds.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

So what works and what doesn't?

Speaker:

So it's seven of the talks

Speaker:

that I've worked on with Cambridge

Speaker:

and with others

Speaker:

have been promoted to TED.com.

Speaker:

And that's a pretty high number

Speaker:

ratio of the, you know, out of like, say,

Speaker:

out of 67 of them

Speaker:

have have gone forward to taken.

Speaker:

So I think that there's.

Speaker:

The ones that really stick with people,

Speaker:

I mean,

Speaker:

Ted is a black box, I have to tell you.

Speaker:

So some of the things that you know,

Speaker:

I think sometimes

Speaker:

talks resonate with people

Speaker:

because it's

Speaker:

it's it's the right message

Speaker:

at the right time.

Speaker:

It's the thing that people

Speaker:

are thinking about.

Speaker:

It's a thing that

Speaker:

that sometimes they tie into

Speaker:

to persistent.

Speaker:

Topics of human nature.

Speaker:

But the the real

Speaker:

the trick, I think, and it's one

Speaker:

I talk about in the book as well,

Speaker:

is that the idea

Speaker:

at the core of the talk combines

Speaker:

something people want,

Speaker:

which we've heard talked about

Speaker:

with some

Speaker:

via means they don't expect, right?

Speaker:

It gives them something that they want

Speaker:

via a means they don't expect.

Speaker:

So, for instance,

Speaker:

didn't work on this talk,

Speaker:

but Amy Curry's power poles talk

Speaker:

combines something people want.

Speaker:

That means they don't expect it.

Speaker:

If I were to say that her talk combines

Speaker:

how you can use body language,

Speaker:

that's the unexpected part

Speaker:

to overcome imposter syndrome .

Speaker:

That's the thing that people want.

Speaker:

So if you're somebody who suffers

Speaker:

from imposter syndrome

Speaker:

or just wants to feel more confident,

Speaker:

maybe you don't fully

Speaker:

suffer from imposter syndrome.

Speaker:

The idea that your body language

Speaker:

could be a path to doing

Speaker:

that was unexpected.

Speaker:

It just wasn't something

Speaker:

that people had heard before.

Speaker:

And I think that the most.

Speaker:

You know,

Speaker:

even if we talk

Speaker:

about, you know,

Speaker:

kind of epically famous ones like,

Speaker:

you know,

Speaker:

how the schools kill creativity,

Speaker:

that's that's again,

Speaker:

like something people want.

Speaker:

I want to do the best thing for my child.

Speaker:

What's the best,

Speaker:

you know, unexpected thing.

Speaker:

Oh my gosh.

Speaker:

This thing that I'm doing that

Speaker:

I think is good for my child

Speaker:

may actually be doing

Speaker:

something really awful to them.

Speaker:

So I think that.

Speaker:

I think it's always something like that

Speaker:

there's just.

Speaker:

And that's why I think it's

Speaker:

getting increasingly hard to find

Speaker:

and and to generate really good

Speaker:

Ted and Ted ideas because

Speaker:

it's not that there's

Speaker:

a shortage of ideas in the world.

Speaker:

Not at all.

Speaker:

Yeah, it's that.

Speaker:

The

Speaker:

you know, in a way, TED acts,

Speaker:

which if people aren't

Speaker:

aware of the difference

Speaker:

between Ted and Ted, Ted acts

Speaker:

as kind of like a franchise of TED.

Speaker:

It's a, you know, they're they

Speaker:

they have to sign on and go through

Speaker:

training and and subscribe

Speaker:

to and get a license from TED.

Speaker:

But essentially,

Speaker:

within certain boundaries, they

Speaker:

they can do what they want with,

Speaker:

you know, choosing the speakers and,

Speaker:

you know, all of those kinds of things.

Speaker:

There's

Speaker:

just so many of them now

Speaker:

that.

Speaker:

Unless you are somebody

Speaker:

who is actually in the business

Speaker:

of creating knowledge,

Speaker:

not just synthesizing knowledge,

Speaker:

not just applying it,

Speaker:

unless you're in the business

Speaker:

of actually creating knowledge,

Speaker:

which

Speaker:

you know for us it takes,

Speaker:

Cambridge is essentially academics

Speaker:

and a large and a large way,

Speaker:

not exclusively, but close.

Speaker:

It's really hard

Speaker:

to actually say that you've got something

Speaker:

genuinely new

Speaker:

and unexpected out

Speaker:

there in the world and.

Speaker:

But those are the ones that,

Speaker:

you know, it's

Speaker:

just it's that intersection.

Speaker:

I mean,

Speaker:

I think one of my personal favorites

Speaker:

of the last five years is Suzanne Somers.

Speaker:

Talk on on how trees talk to each other

Speaker:

and.

Speaker:

You know, it's one of those things where,

Speaker:

you know,

Speaker:

if I were to put my own process

Speaker:

on, it was like, Oh,

Speaker:

how does how does her idea,

Speaker:

which is proven out?

Speaker:

She's created

Speaker:

this knowledge in the world that trees

Speaker:

talk to each other

Speaker:

through a substrate of

Speaker:

of essentially mushroom connections

Speaker:

that's oversimplifying it?

Speaker:

How does it get something

Speaker:

that people want?

Speaker:

It ties in to

Speaker:

for those people who are interested

Speaker:

in, like, how do we?

Speaker:

How do we preserve the natural world

Speaker:

that's important to us?

Speaker:

If you're interested in that,

Speaker:

then all of a sudden

Speaker:

she's indicating

Speaker:

like she's brought

Speaker:

in this new piece of information

Speaker:

that trees

Speaker:

talk to each other

Speaker:

through the fungal layer

Speaker:

that's underneath them.

Speaker:

It's like,

Speaker:

Oh, holy cow,

Speaker:

we have not looked at that like at all.

Speaker:

We haven't even thought about that.

Speaker:

What does that mean?

Speaker:

And so I think as I'm talking through it,

Speaker:

I think there's this third piece

Speaker:

that really takes something over the top.

Speaker:

I think a great idea can give it

Speaker:

something people.

Speaker:

They want vitamins they don't expect.

Speaker:

But you know what, I think

Speaker:

the best Ted and Ted talks

Speaker:

do is they make people feel

Speaker:

a little bit smarter about something.

Speaker:

You know,

Speaker:

they just give them this,

Speaker:

this this like,

Speaker:

Oh, I've got this thing

Speaker:

that I can go tell other people about.

Speaker:

And that's how Jonah Berger's

Speaker:

work on contagious.

Speaker:

You know, and how ideas spread.

Speaker:

I think that's

Speaker:

that's a real piece of it is that,

Speaker:

you know,

Speaker:

the social currency

Speaker:

that can come from idea.

Speaker:

When you get to say to someone, Hey,

Speaker:

did you know

Speaker:

trees talk to each other?

Speaker:

Did you know

Speaker:

to use one of our examples from Telex

Speaker:

Cambridge, Dheeraj Roy?

Speaker:

Did you know that we can restore

Speaker:

the pathways to early memory

Speaker:

to memories and early stage

Speaker:

Alzheimer's mice?

Speaker:

Did you know that we can do that?

Speaker:

Because that kind of did you know,

Speaker:

not in a condescending, like,

Speaker:

Oh, I know a thing

Speaker:

that you dealt with this

Speaker:

in this helpful like way?

Speaker:

There might be an answer like that

Speaker:

we didn't know about before.

Speaker:

I think that's where there's

Speaker:

this magical combination.

Speaker:

I would say even Djibouti.

Speaker:

Taylor's talking. My stroke of insight

Speaker:

is that to write, like her

Speaker:

talk is all about answering

Speaker:

Why is it that,

Speaker:

you know, certain people are, are

Speaker:

you know, she frames it is, you know,

Speaker:

how does

Speaker:

why does she process the world

Speaker:

in one way and her brother, who's

Speaker:

schizophrenic, process

Speaker:

the world in another way?

Speaker:

And her answer is that.

Speaker:

For, you know,

Speaker:

after she's gone

Speaker:

through this experience of a stroke, that

Speaker:

it's the people who can kind of tap

Speaker:

into both sides of the brain

Speaker:

is going to consciously or not,

Speaker:

that are the ones that able to do that.

Speaker:

Well, that's it.

Speaker:

Cuckoo, bananas like idea.

Speaker:

If you think about it

Speaker:

from the get go, you're like,

Speaker:

what I would say.

Speaker:

And it's part of the reason

Speaker:

why her talk is so brilliant,

Speaker:

because by the end of it,

Speaker:

you're like, Yes.

Speaker:

Absolutely. Yeah.

Speaker:

But this kind of

Speaker:

I know, for instance, that like her talk

Speaker:

is what you know in my mind.

Speaker:

It links up

Speaker:

with all the

Speaker:

more recent conversations

Speaker:

about psychedelics

Speaker:

and like Michael Pollan's new book

Speaker:

and you know, just this,

Speaker:

I think people are starting

Speaker:

to appreciate this.

Speaker:

Oh, there's a

Speaker:

there's a layer of something

Speaker:

that we haven't seen before,

Speaker:

and I think that's

Speaker:

that's a very long answer.

Speaker:

But I

Speaker:

think that

Speaker:

that's really

Speaker:

what makes something really good

Speaker:

is not just that

Speaker:

you've got a new take on something,

Speaker:

but you've actually you're creating.

Speaker:

I can just come back to that phrase.

Speaker:

It comes from my

Speaker:

friend, and I don't know if she realizes

Speaker:

that mentor

Speaker:

Ruth Godin, who

Speaker:

who talks about like, that's,

Speaker:

you know, that's

Speaker:

a creation of knowledge.

Speaker:

And I think that's.

Speaker:

When you create

Speaker:

knowledge that

Speaker:

you're able to do all of those things,

Speaker:

you're able to answer a question

Speaker:

that people

Speaker:

why are able to find a way

Speaker:

that people don't expect

Speaker:

and because you're creating knowledge

Speaker:

and sharing it,

Speaker:

you are helping people to feel

Speaker:

just a little bit smarter

Speaker:

about themselves of the world.

Speaker:

And I think most people

Speaker:

want to feel that. Yes, that

Speaker:

is beautiful.

Speaker:

And I only

Speaker:

know the last documents and their boys.

Speaker:

That's the one I've seen.

Speaker:

I think

Speaker:

one of the beauty of that is a brought

Speaker:

people from different worlds

Speaker:

also together

Speaker:

like not only the Kadhimiya,

Speaker:

not only the science,

Speaker:

but also people who are a little bit more

Speaker:

on the spiritual side of the things

Speaker:

just connects those intersects.

Speaker:

Those thoughts allows.

Speaker:

Yeah, it's such a I like.

Speaker:

I just I also appreciate that talk

Speaker:

from a construction standpoint

Speaker:

because it is

Speaker:

it's a very technical talk.

Speaker:

If you go back and look,

Speaker:

you know, read it or listen to it

Speaker:

like she used a lot of technical

Speaker:

stuff in it.

Speaker:

But I love how she slowly

Speaker:

moves from a question

Speaker:

that people that are,

Speaker:

you know, willing to ask, Yeah, why?

Speaker:

You know,

Speaker:

why is it that her brother,

Speaker:

she and her brother experience

Speaker:

the world differently to this answer?

Speaker:

That is just

Speaker:

if she started there,

Speaker:

I don't like

Speaker:

people wouldn't have gone with her.

Speaker:

So the structure of that talk,

Speaker:

I think, you know, that's

Speaker:

another thing that plays into it is

Speaker:

kind of understanding the.

Speaker:

Baseline level of readiness

Speaker:

of an audience

Speaker:

to hear an idea in a certain way.

Speaker:

And there's lots of examples

Speaker:

of different ways

Speaker:

that different speakers do this, but

Speaker:

I think she knew consciously

Speaker:

or intuitively

Speaker:

that she couldn't

Speaker:

come right out with the answer.

Speaker:

Yes.

Speaker:

Hey, we're

Speaker:

we are

Speaker:

just absolutely not tapping

Speaker:

into both sides of our brain.

Speaker:

There's the whole other world out there

Speaker:

and experience out there

Speaker:

and this other brain

Speaker:

that a is possible

Speaker:

for us to tap into a B.

Speaker:

We'd all be a lot better off if we could.

Speaker:

I mean, I think she started there.

Speaker:

People are like, No, no way.

Speaker:

Yeah,

Speaker:

but just

Speaker:

the evolution

Speaker:

that she takes over that

Speaker:

talk is just it's it's masterful.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

Thank you for pointing out Newstalk's.

Speaker:

I'll make sure put in the North.

Speaker:

So people

Speaker:

who are curious can go

Speaker:

and listen to the list of

Speaker:

these are beautiful dogs.

Speaker:

And when you mentioned, you know,

Speaker:

having a component

Speaker:

in your talk or message

Speaker:

that says

Speaker:

that makes you feel smarter or ask

Speaker:

you, Hey, did you know that I remember

Speaker:

this couple of days ago?

Speaker:

My son is out.

Speaker:

It's almost five

Speaker:

as it turns five in March,

Speaker:

and I was picking up from the school

Speaker:

and he's Who is that?

Speaker:

That I did?

Speaker:

You know who created this world?

Speaker:

And I was like, who was like God?

Speaker:

And he had that lesson in the school

Speaker:

and I was like, OK.

Speaker:

He was just amazing

Speaker:

to have that interaction.

Speaker:

And you know, that curiosity

Speaker:

that I could see

Speaker:

in the eyes that he learned something new

Speaker:

and that

Speaker:

day in the school,

Speaker:

and he was just so

Speaker:

curious to share it for, you know?

Speaker:

Yeah, I love that.

Speaker:

And I think

Speaker:

and kids are such a beautiful window

Speaker:

into that, into that eye

Speaker:

that you know

Speaker:

what your son brings to mind

Speaker:

is the fact that I think all of us

Speaker:

and you really see it

Speaker:

and kids are trying to make sense

Speaker:

of what we see all the time .

Speaker:

Yes, stories of the way that we do that.

Speaker:

But when you get a new piece

Speaker:

of information like that,

Speaker:

I think the reason why it's so powerful

Speaker:

is that all of a sudden, like

Speaker:

you may not even realize

Speaker:

there was a piece missing in the story,

Speaker:

but all of a sudden

Speaker:

when your son heard that for him

Speaker:

, it's just like something clicked in.

Speaker:

Yeah, something was like, Oh,

Speaker:

oh, this thing?

Speaker:

Like,

Speaker:

Oh, now now

Speaker:

there's a character in the story

Speaker:

of this world

Speaker:

that I see

Speaker:

that now helps me make it

Speaker:

make a little bit more sense.

Speaker:

And I think these pieces of information

Speaker:

that I think people who are very talented

Speaker:

at creating information, creating

Speaker:

knowledge are putting out in the world

Speaker:

or doing exactly that.

Speaker:

You're adding a piece of information

Speaker:

that helps

Speaker:

things make a little bit

Speaker:

more sense, either

Speaker:

you know why something happens

Speaker:

the way it does or,

Speaker:

you know, just, oh , now I, you know,

Speaker:

what do I do next?

Speaker:

Like what?

Speaker:

OK, I

Speaker:

maybe I have a belief about,

Speaker:

you know,

Speaker:

and understanding about why the world

Speaker:

works the way that does.

Speaker:

But you know, why is that?

Speaker:

How do I put that into play?

Speaker:

And I think that that's

Speaker:

yeah,

Speaker:

I don't think

Speaker:

we can ever lose sight of that

Speaker:

because that's really like, you know,

Speaker:

I say this to my clients often is,

Speaker:

but an idea exists in between, right?

Speaker:

Like, that's how I think about it.

Speaker:

Like,

Speaker:

you can back the sending and receiving,

Speaker:

you can send an idea out there,

Speaker:

but it's it's how it's received

Speaker:

that really makes the difference.

Speaker:

Yes. And.

Speaker:

That goes beyond just communications and,

Speaker:

you know, thinking about like,

Speaker:

you know, your audience's point of view,

Speaker:

it really

Speaker:

it really comes in

Speaker:

and says

Speaker:

to me testing, I test all my ideas

Speaker:

and the ideas

Speaker:

I'm looking at on behalf of other people

Speaker:

from that initial standpoint of utility.

Speaker:

Like,

Speaker:

does it help somebody else?

Speaker:

Is it going to help somebody else?

Speaker:

And not every idea has to do that.

Speaker:

Those are the people

Speaker:

I choose to work with or people

Speaker:

who serve ideas bigger

Speaker:

than than than themselves,

Speaker:

who ideas do serve those bigger purposes.

Speaker:

Just because

Speaker:

I like those ideas, the more it's me.

Speaker:

But I think that that's.

Speaker:

Again, I just,

Speaker:

you know, it's a

Speaker:

it's a it's a mantra

Speaker:

that I've often held for myself,

Speaker:

which is be useful,

Speaker:

be thoughtful, be passionate, be kind.

Speaker:

It's it's not an accident.

Speaker:

That useful is the first one

Speaker:

and kind is the last one.

Speaker:

But those, you know, I think just

Speaker:

I think that summarizes a lot about why

Speaker:

I do what I do

Speaker:

and the kinds of ideas

Speaker:

that I think are most effective because

Speaker:

I just think people.

Speaker:

Goes back to being

Speaker:

heard and seen and validated,

Speaker:

the people want to feel.

Speaker:

ABC in a smart, capable and good.

Speaker:

And so when you give them

Speaker:

something that makes them

Speaker:

feel more of

Speaker:

those more smart,

Speaker:

more capable, more good,

Speaker:

you're really validating their humanness,

Speaker:

their humanity, their their personhood

Speaker:

and back to

Speaker:

what we were talking about

Speaker:

the top of the call.

Speaker:

That is a great place to start.

Speaker:

Anything is with having validated

Speaker:

someone's personhood, you know, that

Speaker:

oftentimes will open up many, many paths

Speaker:

to change to two paths forward.

Speaker:

And you know,

Speaker:

just what I see with my work,

Speaker:

it's not hard.

Speaker:

It's not hard to validate

Speaker:

someone's personhood. It really isn't.

Speaker:

But you have to be willing to do it.

Speaker:

And that's,

Speaker:

I think, probably,

Speaker:

you know, that's

Speaker:

probably my most,

Speaker:

you know, where my

Speaker:

curiosity takes me next is.

Speaker:

What happens when someone

Speaker:

is no longer willing?

Speaker:

Like, why does that happen?

Speaker:

Why does it happen that someone's

Speaker:

not just not willing to extend that grace

Speaker:

to somebody else? I don't know.

Speaker:

I want to know

Speaker:

there was a really, really deep topics,

Speaker:

and it's easy.

Speaker:

But it's also simple is

Speaker:

it makes me curious.

Speaker:

Like, how did we lose that fact?

Speaker:

Like in the name of professionalism,

Speaker:

we lost part of our humanity humanism

Speaker:

up there

Speaker:

because we were just trying

Speaker:

to be too professional about

Speaker:

whatever we're doing in.

Speaker:

And thank you

Speaker:

for bringing that message just makes me

Speaker:

curious, but also makes me more

Speaker:

respectful of what you do

Speaker:

and what you stand for.

Speaker:

And so I'm glad you were doing this now.

Speaker:

I mean, I know that's

Speaker:

in the book, by the way,

Speaker:

but that comes back to

Speaker:

what we're talking about as well.

Speaker:

I mean, most people aren't

Speaker:

walking around being like,

Speaker:

How can you validate people's personhood?

Speaker:

So it's like,

Speaker:

you know,

Speaker:

you don't start there, you start with,

Speaker:

you know, we're back to what

Speaker:

people already want.

Speaker:

People who have big ideas

Speaker:

want to have want them

Speaker:

to have the power that they think

Speaker:

their ideas deserve to have.

Speaker:

And a lot of people struggle with that.

Speaker:

And, you know, it's

Speaker:

just one of those things

Speaker:

like fundamentally that that,

Speaker:

you know, it's it's,

Speaker:

you know,

Speaker:

we are seeking from other people

Speaker:

what we need to extend to them first,

Speaker:

which is if we want somebody

Speaker:

to validate our ideas,

Speaker:

we have to validate them.

Speaker:

first, we have to validate

Speaker:

the ideas they already have

Speaker:

so they can be open to hearing

Speaker:

and doing something different.

Speaker:

Hmm. Amazing.

Speaker:

I think for anybody who was was has ideas

Speaker:

looking to get on that org.

Speaker:

So I'm thinking about it.

Speaker:

I think they need to go back

Speaker:

ten minutes to listen it again.

Speaker:

There's a lot of

Speaker:

gold in the last ten minutes

Speaker:

about how to keep an idea into a message

Speaker:

that sticks out.

Speaker:

So moving from

Speaker:

messaging and

Speaker:

ideas into branding, because that's what

Speaker:

it does for brands.

Speaker:

And one of the things

Speaker:

I've always seen, the bigger

Speaker:

the strong brands is all about that idea.

Speaker:

That's just

Speaker:

the messaging is really strong.

Speaker:

It connects and connects

Speaker:

all the pieces that you've talked about.

Speaker:

But what I'm seeing now and

Speaker:

and you could.

Speaker:

See, see

Speaker:

how you see

Speaker:

from your end of the things is

Speaker:

that a lot of people

Speaker:

very used to branding

Speaker:

used to be for the companies.

Speaker:

I think we have come into a place

Speaker:

where it's for individual

Speaker:

people are realizing the importance

Speaker:

of having their LinkedIn as their voice,

Speaker:

not their company's voice

Speaker:

as what they're doing.

Speaker:

And

Speaker:

how do you see when it comes to branding?

Speaker:

You know, for individual,

Speaker:

why is it important?

Speaker:

one Why one should be doing it?

Speaker:

Well, OK,

Speaker:

so.

Speaker:

I have a slightly different

Speaker:

perspective on on branding,

Speaker:

because I think a lot of times

Speaker:

what brands

Speaker:

and branding, particularly in personal

Speaker:

branding, comes into play.

Speaker:

It ends up being aspirational

Speaker:

and meaning

Speaker:

how I wish that you would see me.

Speaker:

And what ends up happening

Speaker:

is because we're trying to create.

Speaker:

It's not.

Speaker:

I don't think it's intentionally

Speaker:

a false front.

Speaker:

I think sometimes it is, though.

Speaker:

But we're trying to say,

Speaker:

well, here's the.

Speaker:

Here are the pieces of that.

Speaker:

You know,

Speaker:

I want you to think this about me.

Speaker:

So this is what I'm going

Speaker:

to put out there.

Speaker:

A couple of things happened.

Speaker:

one is

Speaker:

there's an inherent lack of integrity

Speaker:

there, right,

Speaker:

because it's not,

Speaker:

you know, it's a

Speaker:

it's a it's a put on thing.

Speaker:

It's a it's a

Speaker:

it's not someone called

Speaker:

performative authenticity.

Speaker:

The other day,

Speaker:

I think that's a beautiful thing.

Speaker:

Like, you're performing

Speaker:

like you're like,

Speaker:

how you want to be seen,

Speaker:

but you're not, actually,

Speaker:

that's not actually it.

Speaker:

But it actually is right.

Speaker:

It's it's very meta.

Speaker:

But the fact that you would perform

Speaker:

in that way to be seen in that way

Speaker:

actually says a lot more about

Speaker:

you than just being that way.

Speaker:

Which brings me back to the red thread,

Speaker:

and when I mentioned it earlier about.

Speaker:

Yes, you know,

Speaker:

it's a story that we tell ourselves,

Speaker:

but when it becomes

Speaker:

an internalized story,

Speaker:

it becomes, as I described it

Speaker:

earlier, really, our operating system

Speaker:

is that we,

Speaker:

we we build

Speaker:

and fulfill the same pattern of stories

Speaker:

over and over again.

Speaker:

We answer the same questions.

Speaker:

We tend to frame things

Speaker:

as as battles

Speaker:

between the same kinds of things

Speaker:

that were anchored

Speaker:

in certain sets of beliefs.

Speaker:

And so what happens is then we really do

Speaker:

have something that oftentimes

Speaker:

is unconscious to us,

Speaker:

the guides, why we do what we do,

Speaker:

the way that we do it,

Speaker:

and it's those stories

Speaker:

that we're constantly telling ourselves.

Speaker:

So.

Speaker:

When you kind of create

Speaker:

create a brand,

Speaker:

when you try to consciously

Speaker:

create a brand,

Speaker:

you create this disconnect

Speaker:

of integrity and actual authenticity.

Speaker:

It's really effortful like it's

Speaker:

you have to work at that all the time.

Speaker:

And then the which is hard

Speaker:

and means that you're not doing as well

Speaker:

a good of a job on something else

Speaker:

because there's a limited amount of work

Speaker:

that we can put in the world.

Speaker:

And the third thing is,

Speaker:

is that

Speaker:

it also means

Speaker:

that you're probably exercising muscles

Speaker:

that aren't actually as strong

Speaker:

as the ones that are the ones that guide

Speaker:

what you do, what you

Speaker:

guide, what you do,

Speaker:

the way that you do it all the time.

Speaker:

In other words,

Speaker:

there's a reason

Speaker:

why for most of us,

Speaker:

the strongest

Speaker:

set of muscles in our bodies is our legs.

Speaker:

Why?

Speaker:

Because we stand and walk

Speaker:

for most of us, right?

Speaker:

And so for those of us

Speaker:

who stand and walk,

Speaker:

that's our strongest set of muscles.

Speaker:

But that means that

Speaker:

even if we're not walking,

Speaker:

we can do

Speaker:

really strong things with our legs,

Speaker:

even though that may not be

Speaker:

where we built up those muscles.

Speaker:

But if we decide to go

Speaker:

rock climbing someday, right,

Speaker:

then well, then we're going to discover

Speaker:

that it's a lot more efficient

Speaker:

to push with our legs

Speaker:

than to pull with our arms. Why?

Speaker:

Because those muscles are already built.

Speaker:

So.

Speaker:

I

Speaker:

I think what happens

Speaker:

with personal branding

Speaker:

is we choose the hog.

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Oftentimes

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we choose how we want to be seen

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and then we work backwards.

Speaker:

And I think that it's a lot easier,

Speaker:

more sustainable,

Speaker:

more differentiating and ultimately

Speaker:

it has more integrity to start with

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why you do what you do,

Speaker:

the way that you do it

Speaker:

and package that and just make that

Speaker:

because it's just a lot easier.

Speaker:

And I'm saying that as someone

Speaker:

who I know, people, you know, people

Speaker:

regularly said, you know, Oh, James,

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you have a very strong personal brand.

Speaker:

I'm like,

Speaker:

you know,

Speaker:

don't I just I just don't do stuff

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that isn't consistent with who I am

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and what I like. Period.

Speaker:

And by having figured that out,

Speaker:

it just makes a lot of it a lot easier.

Speaker:

So, yeah,

Speaker:

I have giant polka dots on my wall

Speaker:

because I love giant polka dots, right?

Speaker:

And yeah, it tends to be consistent

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with the other stuff that I do

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because I like patterns like that,

Speaker:

like it's just, you know.

Speaker:

I just people don't

Speaker:

need to spend so much time

Speaker:

worrying about personal branding,

Speaker:

just yeah.

Speaker:

Have integrity

Speaker:

to who you are

Speaker:

and what you do and what you care about,

Speaker:

which means you need to stop

Speaker:

and figure out who you are,

Speaker:

what you do and what you care about.

Speaker:

But I have found increasingly that,

Speaker:

you know,

Speaker:

that finding your red thread

Speaker:

and you know, yeah,

Speaker:

it's a slightly different adaptation

Speaker:

than the way I wrote it around.

Speaker:

I wrote about it in the book,

Speaker:

but by finding that like,

Speaker:

what am I trying to do?

Speaker:

What questions my trying to answer?

Speaker:

What gaps

Speaker:

am I trying to close in the world?

Speaker:

What do I believe?

Speaker:

What are the sets of skills

Speaker:

that I've developed as a result?

Speaker:

You start to have

Speaker:

incredible clarity about.

Speaker:

Not only what you do,

Speaker:

but why it's important,

Speaker:

why, how you do it

Speaker:

is different than anybody else

Speaker:

and how all of that has power and value

Speaker:

that you can use to your

Speaker:

and the world's advantage.

Speaker:

So start there. Hmm.

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This is beautiful,

Speaker:

and I've never heard

Speaker:

somebody talk about Iran in this way.

Speaker:

Like I've heard, people talk,

Speaker:

you know, tend to be authentic,

Speaker:

but you can get lost in that.

Speaker:

What is authentic

Speaker:

and what you said was so deep in a way

Speaker:

that will figure out who you are before

Speaker:

trying to build that brand?

Speaker:

Because if you don't even know

Speaker:

who you are,

Speaker:

then you're

Speaker:

doing that, you're building

Speaker:

your brand all the time,

Speaker:

whether you are doing it

Speaker:

consciously or not.

Speaker:

Like the way

Speaker:

I think of a brand is the sum total

Speaker:

of people's experiences with you.

Speaker:

So if you don't know what you're doing,

Speaker:

like that is your brand.

Speaker:

Your brand is going to be

Speaker:

this kind of mishmash of like somebody

Speaker:

who's representing themselves

Speaker:

this way in the market,

Speaker:

but acting like this?

Speaker:

Well, that's not an awesome brand. So

Speaker:

like I said and the the gap

Speaker:

is really hard to maintain.

Speaker:

So like again,

Speaker:

I'm just maybe

Speaker:

I just inherently lazy, but just

Speaker:

who are you?

Speaker:

Like, what do you do like start there?

Speaker:

So there is value in that.

Speaker:

I believe that to my core,

Speaker:

that who you are,

Speaker:

what you do, why you do,

Speaker:

it is already strong.

Speaker:

There is already value.

Speaker:

There is already differentiation.

Speaker:

And what would it mean for you

Speaker:

who's trying to figure out

Speaker:

your personal brand

Speaker:

if you just started with that

Speaker:

as the assumption

Speaker:

that you already had it,

Speaker:

that it was already strong?

Speaker:

What what does that look like?

Speaker:

What is that strong brand

Speaker:

that you have already created

Speaker:

because you have so start there

Speaker:

because then you don't

Speaker:

have as much work to do?

Speaker:

Yes, it is.

Speaker:

Is simple,

Speaker:

easy, but also easy to get lost

Speaker:

like people.

Speaker:

Yeah, it is.

Speaker:

Because people

Speaker:

who you know, know who you right?

Speaker:

And so I like to be,

Speaker:

maybe I'm a lone voice in the wilderness.

Speaker:

So the other aren't just saying like,

Speaker:

you know what, you

Speaker:

most of the people

Speaker:

are trying to do something else

Speaker:

probably have something to sell you.

Speaker:

It's and it's not that,

Speaker:

you know,

Speaker:

everybody's got to do their thing,

Speaker:

and sometimes you need that outside

Speaker:

set of eyes to help to understand.

Speaker:

Yes, but the minute

Speaker:

you start to feel like

Speaker:

I need to do this

Speaker:

in order to be seen this way,

Speaker:

that's when you know

Speaker:

you've already stepped out

Speaker:

beyond yourself

Speaker:

and not in a good way, right?

Speaker:

You don't need to do anything different.

Speaker:

You just need to capture what it is

Speaker:

that you already do differently.

Speaker:

Hmm. Amazing. So,

Speaker:

so if I was an

Speaker:

engineer, right, I'm

Speaker:

just starting putting my electric.

Speaker:

I'm just trying to pick an example

Speaker:

and I'm starting.

Speaker:

I want them, you know?

Speaker:

So why have millions of LinkedIn

Speaker:

what I do, what I used to do earlier?

Speaker:

I'm still a lot of my experience

Speaker:

with shows like this title,

Speaker:

who I work for a little bit

Speaker:

of just a

Speaker:

few lines of their descriptions.

Speaker:

And what you're saying is that.

Speaker:

You know,

Speaker:

and how are you doing like show your work

Speaker:

in that area?

Speaker:

Just don't leave.

Speaker:

Yeah, yeah, there was. I did.

Speaker:

So there's a while I was doing a feature

Speaker:

as part of my newsletter and part of my

Speaker:

YouTube channel

Speaker:

where I was calling

Speaker:

what's missing from this message?

Speaker:

And someone asked me to take a look

Speaker:

at their LinkedIn bio.

Speaker:

And and I think that probably summarizes

Speaker:

really well

Speaker:

my thoughts on that,

Speaker:

how to how to do that.

Speaker:

But yeah, I do think you know

Speaker:

that if somebody asks you what you do,

Speaker:

you know there's there's it's

Speaker:

it's important to give people a bucket,

Speaker:

so they understand kind of

Speaker:

roughly how to start to think about you.

Speaker:

But then

Speaker:

the more that you can hone

Speaker:

that into something where

Speaker:

somebody goes, Oh, I want that,

Speaker:

I need that.

Speaker:

Hmm, that's important.

Speaker:

Like, that's you know, that's

Speaker:

and that's

Speaker:

how I eventually landed on English

Speaker:

to English translator

Speaker:

because most people get it

Speaker:

like they just get it instinctively.

Speaker:

They're like, OK,

Speaker:

whatever their context, they bring to it,

Speaker:

if that's something that they need,

Speaker:

then they know immediately they need it.

Speaker:

They're like, So

Speaker:

you know, and

Speaker:

because not

Speaker:

everybody understands

Speaker:

like message strategy

Speaker:

or something like that or, you know,

Speaker:

ideas, strategy, whatever.

Speaker:

But the most people understand,

Speaker:

like English

Speaker:

to English or language

Speaker:

to language translation,

Speaker:

they're going to get that.

Speaker:

Yeah, yeah. Beautiful.

Speaker:

I will look around

Speaker:

and put that link to your talks

Speaker:

that you mentioned.

Speaker:

Will we?

Speaker:

If anybody is curious to

Speaker:

see how to do it,

Speaker:

they can watch a YouTube.

Speaker:

Super good.

Speaker:

So when Tamsin is not working,

Speaker:

making ideas,

Speaker:

click for message strategies.

Speaker:

You know, what do you do for fun?

Speaker:

What ideas create fun for you?

Speaker:

OK, so most recent, we're going to cut

Speaker:

top of mind.

Speaker:

My husband

Speaker:

and I,

Speaker:

we just adopted a retired

Speaker:

racing greyhound.

Speaker:

Oh wow.

Speaker:

Learning the world of greyhounds

Speaker:

and and being a dog mom

Speaker:

that has in

Speaker:

no way

Speaker:

supplanted my affection

Speaker:

for my actual children

Speaker:

who are a ton of fun.

Speaker:

But, you know, kind of the fun,

Speaker:

fun stuff.

Speaker:

You know, I'm

Speaker:

a big fan of crossword puzzles.

Speaker:

I do the New York Times

Speaker:

crossword puzzle every day.

Speaker:

I'm a big fan of mystery novels,

Speaker:

so I like reading those

Speaker:

I kind of move through like big sets.

Speaker:

So I read all of the Sherlock

Speaker:

Holmes novels,

Speaker:

and then I read all of the Agatha

Speaker:

Christie novels,

Speaker:

and then I read all the Rex Stout

Speaker:

Nero Wolfe novels,

Speaker:

and then I read all the James

Speaker:

Bond novels.

Speaker:

So, yeah,

Speaker:

I think those are some of the things.

Speaker:

And occasionally, when it's not affected

Speaker:

by pandemics as it currently is,

Speaker:

ballroom dancing.

Speaker:

Amazing.

Speaker:

Thank you so much for this.

Speaker:

How can people find you and your work?

Speaker:

I will put in the show notes spot

Speaker:

what is preferable

Speaker:

for Tamsin Webster dot com?

Speaker:

I'm as far as I know,

Speaker:

literally

Speaker:

the only Tamsin Webster in the universe,

Speaker:

so not this hard to find.

Speaker:

So, yeah, Tamsin Webster dot com.

Speaker:

I love it.

Speaker:

If people sign up for my newsletter

Speaker:

Tamsin Webster dot com slash newsletter,

Speaker:

I you know every week

Speaker:

putting out something

Speaker:

that I hope is useful

Speaker:

to folks that help them

Speaker:

make their messages or their content

Speaker:

just a little bit stronger

Speaker:

so they can get their big ideas

Speaker:

out there in the world.

Speaker:

Amazing. Thank you.

Speaker:

I will put that in the show notes

Speaker:

again, thank you so much for this time.

Speaker:

I know it was a ton of value.

Speaker:

I know

Speaker:

somebody was moved

Speaker:

from the engineering

Speaker:

into the space with podcasting,

Speaker:

and I still am learning.

Speaker:

And I got a lot of value, not only just

Speaker:

from your professional side of things,

Speaker:

but also learning your humanness

Speaker:

and how connected

Speaker:

and strongly

Speaker:

you believe in the ideas of humanity.

Speaker:

It was wonderful.

Speaker:

It was a gift for me to learn that,

Speaker:

you know,

Speaker:

there are people so like you that,

Speaker:

you know, even

Speaker:

in your species

Speaker:

, you're talking and bringing

Speaker:

the ball down.

Speaker:

So thank you so much, Tamsen, for that.

Speaker:

My pleasure, man.

Speaker:

Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker:

All right.

Speaker:

I hope you enjoy the show

Speaker:

as much as I did

Speaker:

and got some valuable nuggets out of it.

Speaker:

If you liked it,

Speaker:

there are other shows you can watch.

Speaker:

They are exactly

Speaker:

what you need,

Speaker:

and I ask you to like command subscribed.

Speaker:

Let me know what you thought of the show.

Speaker:

Really, I want to hear from you firsthand

Speaker:

what you found, what you liked,

Speaker:

what you didn't like.

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About the Podcast

It's on Entrepreneurship, Spirituality and The Dance Of Life
with Manpreet Bawa
After 20 years as a successful IT professional in corporate America, I seemed to had it all. I raised over 10M’+ in sales, but I was unfulfilled and unhappy for not being in control. Suddenly I realized: if I died tomorrow, all I would be known for was 20 years of career success and nothing else. It wasn’t enough for me, so I worked feverishly to get out of an unfulfilling rut.
I learned my lessons about investing in self and equally focusing on soft skills aka life skills like leadership, communication, etc. a hard way. But it doesn't need to be this hard.
This is why I created this show where I can bring influencers and thought leaders from all walks of life who can help provide tools and strategies for growth in
Entrepreneurship
Spirituality
and The Dance Of Life.